Redundancy in Australia: What You Need to Know | 702 ABC Sydney Drive

Thomas Oriti: This is Drive, and you are with Thomas Oriti on 702 ABC Sydney. Thanks for joining us; as we are all aware, there are big changes in the workforce at the moment. DJs is a case in point, and I want to take this next 15 minutes to talk about it, particularly when your position is made redundant. There is a lot of talk about that at the moment. Last week, the NAB announced they would be laying off two and a half thousand workers, which is 6% of its workforce. Yesterday, in more of a global story, Microsoft announced 60,000 of its global workforce to go. Australia was not named there, just overseas jobs, but 60,000. Have you ever been offered a redundancy?. Did you take it at the time?. What was the process like?. How did the company treat you?. In some cases, like the case of NAB, some staff have been given the choice of competing for remaining positions or taking a redundancy package. It is a tough decision, and if you are going through it at the moment, I hope you are okay. What is your experience of this?. Give me a call, I would love to hear from you; 1300 222 702 is the number. Maybe you have been through it a number of times, in which case your advice would be really useful to someone wrestling with this decision now. What would you like them to know?. I am not sure if this is a well-known phrase, but I have heard a few people over the years say to never say no to a redundancy. Is that just a thing you hear, or is there an element of truth to that, and what is the thinking?. Call 1300 222 702. I would love you to be a part of this discussion and hear your stories this afternoon of taking a redundancy. Did it give you the impetus to make a change, to reskill, and move on to something else?. Natasha Hawker is an HR specialist and the founder and managing director of Employee Matters, who is with us this afternoon. Hi, Natasha.

Natasha Hawker: Hi, Tom, how are you?

Thomas Oriti: I am well, thank you. There have been some big redundancy announcements from big companies recently, which is certainly an uncertain time for a number of industries, would you say?

Natasha Hawker: It certainly is. I think a lot of people are quite worried about their job security at the moment, especially with the cost of living that everyone is facing.

Thomas Oriti: When a big corporation goes down this route and makes jobs redundant, what is their obligation when they are going through that process?

Natasha Hawker: It is an interesting one; organisations really need to be able to justify and prove, if required, that the roles they made redundant were genuine redundancies, and that is actually a test. You can make roles redundant; that is a business's right if the role is no longer needed, or if the business can no longer financially afford the headcount. Maybe the business needs to restructure to manage costs. They also need to absolutely pay out the correct redundancy package and notice period. What we often see is those small to mid-sized businesses, especially those going through financial hardship, rushing the process and then failing the unfair dismissal test. I always say to clients to remember that ignorance is not a defence; you have to do it right, even if you are under pressure.

Thomas Oriti: Do your research. Ross has texted in saying, "Hi Thomas, a not very good boss in my unhappy workplace made two long-standing senior colleagues redundant. I immediately went into the boss's office and said I was happy to go too, and they said, no, we cannot make you redundant, you are actually useful. I lasted about another year and just left without a payout, but with my dignity intact.". Ross, I hope you are happy now, thanks for sharing that. I would love to hear from you as part of this discussion; are you going through the journey at the moment, or have you?. 1300 222 702. Natasha, just off the back of Ross's text, and you mentioned this before, sorry if I am getting your words wrong, did you say something about legitimate redundancy?. Is there an obligation on a company to prove that a position is being phased out, not just someone they do not think is useful, but that a position needs to be phased out?

Natasha Hawker: Yes, they need to have done the work behind that and actually make sure they can justify that the role is now redundant. As I said, that could be a numbers game, like needing to lose a certain amount of cost from our wage packages. Or it could be that a department no longer needs to exist because it is no longer functioning or viable, and we are getting rid of everybody in that department.

Thomas Oriti: If it happens, what are my rights as an employee if I believe that is not true and that my role is not redundant?

Natasha Hawker: A redundancy or an exit through performance management must meet what we call the unfair dismissal test. In other words, was the termination harsh, unjust, or unreasonable?. If the business rushes through that process and, for example, does not consult—they have a legal requirement to consult with affected employees—they could fail based on the process they followed. This means the business could be called to attend mediation, and if they have failed that unfair dismissal test, they could be forced to pay an ex-employee up to six months' salary, reinstatement, or sometimes both. You probably do not want the employee back after all of that has happened, but they do have that option regarding what they could force you to do as an employer.

Thomas Oriti: Kelly in Penrith texted in saying, "I took a redundancy from my ex-employer after 23 years last December. It was a stressful process, and the company handled the process poorly. I now have a new job in another industry, I am very happy, and I rarely think about my old job. I have stepped forward and moved on.". Kelly, thank you very much for texting in; it is great to hear you are doing well. For some people, taking a redundancy can change their life for the better. Is that a message that you often hear, Natasha Hawker, to not always think of redundancy as a bad word?

Natasha Hawker: Absolutely. If it happens to you at the right time, it can change your life for the better. I remember I was part of a really large-scale redundancy programme in London, and we made a woman in her early 30s redundant. We gave her the news, and she literally leapt out of the chair, gave me a huge hug, and said, "Oh my god, I was planning on resigning next week to do my MBA and you have just paid for it. I have just won the lottery, thank you."

Thomas Oriti: Natasha Hawker is with us; she is an HR specialist, founder, and managing director of Employee Matters. I would love to hear from you this afternoon, so give me a call. If you have been through this, is there anything you would like someone to know?. As Natasha said, you have got to do your own research as well; 1300 222 702. I have a text here from David: "Hey Thomas, in my dream job for 13 years, I was made redundant Christmas 2008. Best thing to happen. Put the money on the mortgage, I had had enough, was a part-time lifeguard, ended up as a full-time lifeguard for a couple of years, went into construction in various roles and TAFE, and here I am working for myself. Amazing.". That feeds into what Natasha was saying, that it can be for the better, and I am glad things are working out for you, David. A text from Carolyn says it is often due to offshoring roles, which is what is happening at NAB with cheaper labour. Offshoring is a big part of that narrative. Natasha, regarding the NAB case, you often hear terms like shark pools or hunger games, and there is an option to reapply for another role. Is that always on the table with these mass redundancies?

Natasha Hawker: It is not always on the table; often, some employees do not actually have a choice as it is made for them when their role is redundant and those roles just do not exist anymore. It is highly competitive out there. There are some cases called a job spill, where essentially there are fewer roles available, and you are invited along with your colleagues to reapply for the remaining roles, which can be incredibly stressful. In some cases, they may already have people in mind for those roles. Because it is highly competitive, I would strongly encourage people to take very proactive ownership of their careers. Look to upskill throughout your career so that if this happens to you at some point, you have options. The previous caller was a part-time lifeguard who was ready for it and went and did that. I encourage everyone to start using AI to augment their roles; think of it as an assistant doing things better, but there must be a human in the loop. We are seeing a real uptick in the number of companies we are recruiting for, or seeing recruiting in the market, actively seeking candidates who highlight on their CVs how they use AI to do their jobs better. I would argue that it is often better for people in their roles to see how they are using AI, because often the people you think are using it are not, and vice versa, the ones you do not think are using it are doing so very well.

Thomas Oriti: I am just going to take a couple of calls. Good afternoon, Olivia, and thanks for calling up. You accepted a redundancy on Monday; how are you feeling?

Olivia (Caller): I feel absolutely terrible. It has been a six-month restructure that we have been going through. I had to go through a consultation process where they did not actually consult with me at any point in time. I was told there was an expression of interest role that I could put in for, and I said I would be interested in that last Monday. Then this Monday, I had a last-minute meeting about what the EOI role was, and it was interstate, so I just said I cannot accept it and to withdraw my EOI so I can take the redundancy. I just wanted to say that in that week, they changed the job description three times. Every time I went into the SharePoint folder, the job description had changed, so it has just been terrible.

Thomas Oriti: I am so sorry to hear that, Olivia; do you get the feeling that the job was always a bit of a dream, and they were offering it with the intention that you would not try to take it?

Olivia (Caller): Yes, I do, because the actual job description is the same as the job I am doing, but it is with another brand within a big brand. My exact role was made redundant, and I understood the positioning for that, but the offer was the same role located in Melbourne, and I did not want to move interstate.

Thomas Oriti: Olivia, I am so sorry to hear you went through that, but thank you very much for sharing it with us. All the very best with whatever happens next; we appreciate you calling up, take care.

Olivia (Caller): Thanks, Tom, bye.

Thomas Oriti: Thank you, Olivia; it is not easy to talk about that stuff on live radio, so we appreciate it. Hunter is with us in North Sydney. Hunter, has this just happened to you as well, and how are you going?

Hunter (Caller): That is right. It happened to me a couple of months ago. As your guest said, I was employed by a small business that clearly did not get their ducks in a row when they made me redundant. They did not give me a redundancy package because it was a small business, offering me a small payout instead, but they did not pay out any of my annual leave. When I requested the payout of my annual leave, they said they did not owe me any, despite having an annual leave figure on my payslip. Now I have to take them to court to get my annual leave paid out.

Thomas Oriti: That is a no-brainer, particularly if it is there in writing. Hunter, I hope you are going alright mate; thank you very much for calling up, and I will ask Natasha about that issue. Take care, and all the very best.

Hunter (Caller): Thanks very much.

Thomas Oriti: Good on you, mate. Natasha, that is not on; if you have annual leave, you have to pay it out.

Natasha Hawker: Yes, you do. The thing is, most small businesses are not quite aware of the process and do not have experts internally; they should outsource that to get somebody to do it. A redundancy is highly stressful for people, but it can and should be done well from a process perspective. If you have over five years of service, even if you are in a small business, you can take your long service leave pro-rata in New South Wales, and your annual leave absolutely must be paid out. If a business is under 15 heads, they do not have to pay a redundancy package because it is a protection for small businesses. Unless they were over 15 and their headcount came down to under 15 when they did the redundancies—that is not a way out, and they actually have to pay redundancies. It is also worth noting that there are minimum requirements, but corporations tend to pay much more generous packages in their redundancies. However, I am still hearing stories of people finding out from a text message that they have been made redundant, which is just not good enough. People need to be treated with respect when they are leaving an organisation as well as when they are joining.

Thomas Oriti: It is a really stressful time indeed. Natasha, we appreciate you coming on, thank you very much.

Natasha Hawker: My pleasure.

Thomas Oriti: That was Natasha Hawker, HR specialist, founder, and managing director of Employee Matters.